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Report on sitting for the NC Bar
Posted on March 20, 2002 at 08:54:18 AM by Dale
Wagstaff
George,
It would be great if you could report to us regarding sitting for the NC Bar.
What was the Bar exam like, how is it set up, what type of preparation was
required to prepare for it, what weaknesses or strengths did you feel you
possessed in the conversion of the UOL degree/LLM Widener degree into knowledge
necessary for the Bar, etc.. Also, did you discover any preparatory materials ie
practice Bar exams that you could use in preparation for the exam. Upon passing
the Bar, what will your intention then be? This information would be quite
interesting and helpful to us who look forward to attaining what you have
achieved.
Dale
Posted on March 24, 2002 at 10:01:01 AM by George
Pappas
Hi Dale,
Thanks for your excellent question.
The North Carolina Bar permits holders of an ABA LL.M to take their bar exam
provided you meet their character and fitness standards. For those who hold an
LL.B from the University of London – whether earned internally or externally
– you can consider taking the North Carolina Bar if you also earn a US LL.M
degree from an American Bar Association approved law school.
The North Carolina Bar is set up into two parts. Part I is composed of 12
essays. The essay pool is actually composed of around 18 subjects from Agency,
Contracts, US Constitutional law, NC Civil Procedure, NC Family Law, NC Ethics,
Criminal Law, Evidence, Property, Corporation Law, Wills, Trusts and more.
It is important to get used to the idea that you cannot specialize in one or two
areas – you must be proficient in ALL areas of the law. This is why the
University of London standard is so helpful, because unlike many other British
University LL.B degree programs, the London program is based on passing all of
the subjects in a given year. The NC bar, unlike any of your LL.B degree
programs, requires you to know 12 subjects in one day!
Part II of the NC Bar consists of the Multistate Bar Examination. The MBE is
composed of 200 multiple choice questions in six core subjects. Evidence,
Contracts, Constitutional Law, Property, Evidence, and Criminal Law/Procedure.
Both the morning sessions and afternoon sessions are three hours.
The British LL.B, including the London LL.B, does not adequately prepare you to
take the bar exam for several reasons. Firstly, the LL.B programs from England,
while of a high standard, do not provide tuition in US Constitutional law, US
Professional Responsibility, US Criminal Criminal Procedure, US Civil Procedure,
US Rules of Evidence. Couple this with the fact that many states have state laws
you must learn to pass the bar. For this reason, it is not enough to simply
expect that an LL.B is going to prepare you for any US bar examination. You will
need to invest money, time and effort to learn US law such that you can pass a
bar exam.
Bar Review: Bar Review courses such as BarBri and MicroMash are essential to
passing a bar. From my own experience, I found the MicroMash far better than
BarBri for preparing for the NC essays. BarBri overloads you with so much law
that it is difficult to absorb, much less apply. MicroMash on the other hand,
provides essay questions, and suggested solutions together with a Lawyer Mentor
who grades your essay work. From my experience, MicroMash wins hands down. The
downside with MicroMash is that it does not cover all US jurisdictions;
therefore, you must check to see that the jurisdiction you seek is covered by
them. In short, I can’t see how you can pass a bar exam in the US without a
bar review course.
While the LL.M I earned from Widener University School of Law in Corporate
Finance & Law gave me the necessary prerequisite to take the NC bar, it also
gave me experience and exposure to US law. In my view the LL.M is a necessary
and needed stage in the US for LL.B graduates. Why? Because it helps to bridge
many of the gaps left open by the LL.B. For example, I took Professional
Responsibility, Contracts, Corporate law and other subjects at Widener that made
US law feel at home. My LL.M helped a great deal.
Upon passing the bar, I intend to help the LL.B community. That’s right, I
consider it an obligation by those of us who have struggled without e-mail,
websites and help to guide current and future students in the best way to make
the transition into the legal profession. For my part, I will specialize in the
US since that is my home jurisdiction. I also plan to practice law in NC in the
very near future. I expect to re-locate to NC in the next 60-90 days. My efforts
will also be help LL.B students with the finest tutorial education available.
Currently, I am appalled by the high cost of “some” tutorial services based
in the UK and New York– quite frankly, you deserve better value for your
tutorial lessons. That’s just for starters.
George Pappas
The Malet Street Gazette, Inc.
Posted on March 24, 2002 at 12:04:07 AM by Dale
Wagstaff
George,
Thanks for your answer.
When applying for the LLM, do you know if there is there any requirement to have
any other degree other than the LLB i.e. four year pre-requisite undergrad
degree?
Also, did you have to wait the additional year, as Susan T will have to in
Canada, in order to get accepted, due to the delay in getting your last years'
marks of the LLB? If so, is there any way, if a person started with the LLM
application process early enough, that the law school would review all
information you could submit to date, without the final piece, and therefore,
when you did submit the final year grades, they could conceivably make their
decision in time to allow you to start that current year, instead of waiting
another full year?
I have been in touch with Duke University as well as Emory University. Each of
these universities now claim to have an LLM program specifically designed for
international students, and I am seeing this more and more with other law
schools. What I found interesting is that they appear to let you take core
subjects within the LLM, which would greatly assist us in becoming familiar with
US cases, as well as differences in legal terms. They also insist on a legal
writing course as well, which I think would be a must. However, some of them
speak in terms of "foreign students who have already received their law
degrees from their mother country", and this makes me wonder what their
position may be with me.
I had an earlier experience with University of Washington at St Louis, who also
has a keen thrust towards soliciting international students for their LLM, in
fact, has quite a focused marketing campaign concerning it. In testing their
waters, they finally determined that I would not be eligible for their program,
as I truly was not an international student, because I lived here in the US and
always have. When I questioned them further, they seemed to indicate that their
thought may have changed on that (was it when I suggested a possibility of
discrimination?) and stated that the reason appeared to be based upon the
"external" nature of my LLB degree. I didn't pursue it any farther
than that, as I was in no position to accept if they did finally see it my way.
But I do believe that their position would be a debatable one legally, and
worthy of further investigation.
I also believe that seeking an internship would be extremely helpful in
familiarizing ourselves with procedure here in the US. I have discussed with
Brian Risman the possibility of writing an article on that topic, as I progress
with my own findings, as I think this may be key to assisting our entrance
within our own local legal communities. It is clear that we all will have to
employ some shrewd marketing strategies to get us to where we want to be in
legal practice. I have developed a plan which I believe will work, and am
willing to share with others once I prove it does.
Thanks again for your answer.
Dale
Posted on March 24, 2002 at 03:56:15 PM by George
Pappas
Dale
When applying for the LLM, do you know if there is there any requirement to have
any other degree other than the LLB i.e. four year pre-requisite undergrad
degree?
That’s a good question. For purposes of entering the legal profession in the
US, you are required to have both an undergraduate degree plus your J.D. Note,
the LL.B is a first degree, not a post graduate degree. In order to enter law
school in the US for a J.D., you must first have an undergraduate degree. It is
not clear what the LL.M admission rule is; however, at Widener, I had to also
evidence my pre-law degree. You should check with the admission rules for your
Specific University.
Also, did you have to wait the additional year, as Susan T will have to in
Canada, in order to get accepted, due to the delay in getting your last years'
marks of the LLB? If so, is there any way, if a person started with the LLM
application process early enough, that the law school would review all
information you could submit to date, without the final piece, and therefore,
when you did submit the final year grades, they could conceivably make their
decision in time to allow you to start that current year, instead of waiting
another full year?
No. You don’t have to wait until you finish your LL.B in order to apply. You
can be accepted by your US law school subject to completing your degree. Of
course, you must submit your undergraduate and LL.B grades earned to date in
order for the US law school to start the evaluation. Again, I doubt whether you
can be accepted into the LL.M program without an undergraduate degree – the
LL.B alone is not enough.
I have been in touch with Duke University as well as Emory University. Each of
these universities now claim to have an LLM program specifically designed for
international students, and I am seeing this more and more with other law
schools. What I found interesting is that they appear to let you take core
subjects within the LLM, which would greatly assist us in becoming familiar with
US cases, as well as differences in legal terms. They also insist on a legal
writing course as well, which I think would be a must. However, some of them
speak in terms of "foreign students who have already received their law
degrees from their mother country", and this makes me wonder what their
position may be with me.
I find it appalling that some US law schools will only permit foreign students
with the same degree to apply for their LL.M programs and not permit US citizens
to apply. That’s an equal protection 14th Amendment violation in my book.
Yes, many ABA LL.M programs are flexible enough to let you take JD courses. Some
LL.M programs are actually geared toward introducing US law to foreign law
graduates. For students who wish to practice in the US, this is a must. You must
learn US Constitutional law, US Civil Procedure, US Professional Responsibility,
and of course, US legal writing. The LL.B’s offered from England do not offer
these courses, and it is a serious omission which much be rectified. Other LL.M
programs are focused on core areas like taxation, corporate law, etc. Even in
these core LL.M areas, you must understand US constitutional law, contract,
civil procedure and legal writing.
However, some of them speak in terms of "foreign students who have already
received their law degrees from their mother country", and this makes me
wonder what their position may be with me.
LL.M applicants who are US citizens with LL.B’s from the UK are rare;
therefore, the LL.M admission rules in place with most US ABA LL.M programs are
geared toward non-US foreign law graduates. Don’t get hung up with this issue,
just apply to your school, and let them come back to you with any questions
otherwise, you will muddle the process and perhaps make more life complicated
for yourself.
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