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Justice Ginsburg Speaks
Out Against Internet Based Law Degrees
A Rebuttal
"But I am uneasy about classes
in which students learn entirely from home, in front of a
computer screen, with no face-to-face interaction with other
students and instructors," said Justice Ginsburg, a former
law professor at both Rutgers and Columbia Universities. " The
Chronicle of Higher Education, September 13, 1999.
September 27, 1999
Justice Ruth Ginsburg's comments criticizing
internet based law schools are based on principles supported by
castles in the sky. The unfounded concerns of Justice Ginsburg
regarding Internet based or distance learning programs fail to
recognize the great void in legal
education. That void is created by the professions own fetish
with "classroom" attendance. This view is propagated by
such pundits as Harry Haynsworth, dean and professor at William
Mitchell College of Law in St. Paul, Minn., wherein he states in
a recent article published by The National Jurist,
"[law] is more than just a group of subjects...[i]t's really
almost a culture. And in order to understand that culture you
have to immerse yourself in it." Agreed, law is a culture,
but this culture in not necessarily found in the classroom alone.
Although I agree that by attending law
school one can (not always) experience the culture of the legal
community, what must be stressed is that classroom attendance has
not been proven to be the only method
that can train students to become outstanding attorneys. The
University of London, for example, has been offering law degrees
since 1858 under its external system, and it's graduates are
second to none in the common law world. If anyone needs empirical
evidence, London offers it. Justice Ginsburg does not totally
condemn internet based legal education, she only condemns legal
instruction that is only internet
based. This cause for concern is not based on any empirical
study, but merely her honor's own perception of what works.
Internet based legal education is a great leap
forward for the legal establishment. Internet based instruction
can equal or in some circumstances, exceed the traditional
classroom experience. How? What is the traditional classroom
experience? Students sit in room with 30 or more fellow students.
They prepare cases for each class and the professor either
employs the Socratic method or just lectures. Yes, the
"threat" of being called upon in class forces students
to read the cases, but the experience from the class is not so
unique that a good student cannot exceed its value under either
an internet or distance learning format. Students who cross
reference, read cases and write essays, actually learn more than
traditional law school students in some cases. Note that
introductory courses like Contract, Torts, and others - force
brick and mortar students to read a narrow range of cases - perspective
is something they may find in class if they're not too busy
taking notes. Taking notes interrupts the learning process - so
in this regard, classroom formats hurt students. If professors
want to maximize a student's experience in class, print out
essential notes, and let the students "think" in class.
The ABA's obsession with not missing more than
20% of classes is a great burden to evening students. Some
classes are offered early in the afternoon, and if you can't
leave work soon enough, you are barred from taking that course.
The cost of a legal education in the USA is so absurd when
compared to the rest of the common law community. Why should a
law student borrow $50,000.00 or more to earn a law degree?
Because they are told that only via ABA law schools can they take
the bar. Not true. Many states will allow you to take their bar
examinations from a foreign law school or non-ABA approved law
school (usually with an ABA LL.M)- these rarely discussed options
will save students at least $30,000.00. So cost is a barrier to
entry, and the ABA is directly responsible for restricting access
to the profession via only ABA approved law schools. The ABA will
surely argue that this is done to protect the public from
incompetent and unethical lawyers. But the latter is also -in
part - an argument to restrict access to the profession.
Justice Ginsburg has unfortunately misconstrued
learning law from the experience of law. You can learn law in
class, on the internet or via quality distance learning programs,
like the University of London. All formats can be supported by
clerkships, by clinics or through apprenticeships with attorney's
- the academic element of legal education is without a
doubt not restricted only to classroom attendance.
I am very confident that as time moves along,
internet based law degree programs will prove beyond a shadow of
a doubt, that you can give people an opportunity to learn and
practice the law without attending class. I should know, I earned
my law degree the old fashioned way -outside of the
classroom.
George D.
Pappas, LL.B(Hon)
Editor
Subj: Re: Justice Ginsburg Speaks Out Against
Non-Classroom Law Degrees
Date: 9/29/99 8:00:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: tohsufen@pacific.net.sg (Toh Su Fen)
LETTER TO THE EDITOR
30 September 1999
I can understand the uneasiness. In Singapore, the value of the
external LL.B's lower than the internal. In fact there is now a
need for second uppers from designated UK universities before
internal students can go on to seek Bar admission here. So
external students are only earning a basic degree with the LL.B.
now.
Whether the teaching is classroom based or internet/distance
based is far less important. What is critical is the discipline
of the student. If he were studying only to pass exams then he
would lose out in the long run. A disciplined student can seek
out others for meaningful discussions and exchanges if he has the
will - internet or distance. Those who want to practice law must
take the Bar exams anyway so the last leg is the same whether the
start is external or internal...There are internal students who
never quite make it in the real world despite the classroom
exposure!
I did my LL.B. externally with the UOL. I had
"classmates." We organized our own teaching and
learning. We discussed, we exchanged. I took the English Bar just
like all internal and external students, similarly the Singapore
Bar (before the new requirements took effect). I have just
completed my LL.M exams by distance learning. In fact, internet
research has made the study much more current with House of Lords
decisions available the very next day!
There will always be the critics somewhere out there. Only those
who really put in the effort (any which way) will benefit from
the experience! But I do sigh at the perceived discrimination.
Subj: Attn. Mr. George Pappas, the Editor : Fw:
Commentary On Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg & Internet Law
Degrees (From Olga Hilal, ULEP)
Date: 9/30/99 1:00:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: riot1967@excite.com
LETTER TO THE EDITOR
Dear George,
I have read "The Rebuttal" and entirely share the
editorial position on the subject.
Furthermore, I should like to add that apart from the objection
to Justice Ginsburg's views on the question of adequacy and
quality of distant learning, there is an issue that she
definitely has not considered at all: it is the situation of
students like myself for whom the distant learning is the only
available option.
I do not want to touch in depths the problem of studying in a
country like Russia or Syria, for example. There are many reasons
why people prefer to receive an internationally recognized degree
instead of attending a local institute or a university. We cannot
disregard the factors of age discrimination in some countries or
difficult financial situation. Even in the North America or
Western Europe some people cannot afford to study full time.
I think that the distant learning programs give an excellent
chance to many people to change their lives or the circumstances
they live in.
Olga Hilal
Subj: Comments re Internet based Law Degrees
Date: 9/30/99 3:05:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: nikkilai@yahoo.com (nicole
lai-fook)
LETTER TO THE EDITOR
Dear Sir,
I read your article (Re'Commentary on Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
and Internet based Law Degrees') and the rebuttal of the view as
expressed by Her Honor. I too support the author/s view and I
strenuously advocate the expansion of legal education and
research for and within the legal profession, in any part of the
world, especially in the common law countries.
I have had the opportunity to pursue and have been successful in
my undergraduate Law degree through the University of London
External Programme. I was awarded a Lower Second Class Honours in
Law, without having set a foot any classroom environment,
whatsoever.
For the past five (5) years, I have been employed as a Legal
Research Assistant to the Deputy Solicitor General of the
Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, who happens to be blind. The
volume of work within this department meant that I work very long
hours, even on Saturdays and public holidays. I am not licensed
to practice Law in my country but I have volumes of information
and experience merely from my working within the legal
environment and in polishing my legal research skills. I believe
that this has put me in a more advantaged position that the
traditional/average law degree graduate coming straight out from
university.
I am eternally indebted to the University of London, which
institution is one of the first, if not, the most foremost in
distance and/or internet based legal education. In my country, a
law student must attend his first year in the St. Augustine
campus of the
University of the West Indies. This University encompasses three
(3) islands of the Caribbean: Trinidad & Tobago, Barbados and
Jamaica. The St. Augustine campus, housed in Trindad, offer
degree courses primarily based in business/management studies,
electronics, engineering and agriculture.
As mentioned before, the first year of one's undergraduate law
degree is also spent here. For the second and third years,
however, the student must leave his home, family, and any other
commitments (be it personal, financial or otherwise) to study law
in Barbados at the Cave Hill campus. The average sum of money
(Trinidad and Tobago currency) is $TT 40,000.00 per year for
tuition... this is exclusive of the cost of accommodation in
Barbados for two years, the cost of food and clothing and any
other personal necessity that a particular student may require.
We are not all privy to educational grants or awards, some
students
who have excelled exceptionally well in their secondary education
are awarded scholarships, but these are few and far between.
I have been informed from U.W.I. graduates that the standard of
living and the cost of food in Barbados is extremely high, so a
lot of students live on the bare necessities (unless their
parents are fortunate/wealthy enough to help them pay their way).
The new graduate must now spend the next 5 years of his young
working life paying off his university loans from banks or credit
unions. This means that their work experience is limited because
they must try to hold unto that job for security to pay these
outstanding bills.
I was not that fortunate to have a wealthy family, but I
certainly have no regrets pursuing my degree the way in which I
did. I was also very fortunate to be in a department where
attorneys were supportive and would lend their time, materials,
skills and offer their
knowledge to me. In some cases, I have been instrumental in
encouraging other people to pursue their undergraduate law
degree; in others, I became a form of inspiration (I did not know
of this until I was told).
I also had the fortune to meet a former University of London
lecturer who personally assisted me in preparing for my Public
International Law studies... All in all, I believe that the
internet and/or distance based legal education is a positive step
in the right direction. It is not necessarily 'classroom'
experience that is only required, but the skills to be able to
manage one's time, be cost efficient and use one's resources and
facilities to the maximum. It also means being able to assimilate
information and discriminate as to what is necessary for the
purposes of an examination and what is merely peripheral or
'accessories'.
Anyone can learn from a book or a lecture and whilst these
factors are worthwhile (in their own respective ways), it takes
more discipline, perseverance and self motivation to succeed on
one's own. And, most importantly, it is worth it. The self
satisfaction
that I feel can never be eclipsed by the lack of 'formal' or
'traditional' legal education.
I totally and wholeheartedly support the advance of distance
learning and internet based law degrees. Thank you and the very
best of luck to all.
Ms. Nicole Leslis-Ann Lai Fook LL.B.(Hon)
Republic of Trinidad and Tobago
West Indies
Subj: Internet Based Law Schools
Date: 12/12/00 8:35:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: john@lmslogistics.com (John McHugh)
To: malet1@aol.com
I read George Pappas' rebuttal to Justice Ginsberg and agree completely.
My situation is one where the need to be in a classroom would be impossible
and unnecessary. I am 55 years old and own my own business. After spending
19 years with a Forutne 500 company, I started and ran 5 businesses.
I have always had an interest in the law. I fact over 30 years ago I took
the LSAT. In my career, I have negotiated labor contracts, chaired
grievance committees, written various business contracts (later
approved by a lawyer - I'm not totally crazy), negotiated all manner
of minor and quite substantial business deals. The interaction with
other students probably won't teach me much. The interaction with a law
professor certainly would. There can be other ways to interact with a
professor - e:mail, phone, occasional trips for face to face.
Continuous learning is critical to my growth. Additionally, at my age
I have to start looking at what is next. LAW!! But how to match my
schedule with law school schedules? Impossible at this time. Unless
I could do it over the net. Then I could adjust my "learning" schedule
around my work schedule. Perhaps this is the perfect solution.
How can I find out more about the prospects of getting my law degree
on the net? I will keep searching. Thanks for hearing me out. I am
usually not this long winded.
John McHugh
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